Question:  Pastor Frank, When I was a boy I had a fascination with older men’s bodies, such as my Dad’s, my soccer coach’s, and even my priest’s. Is it weird that I used to get hard thinking about my Greek Orthodox priest, like even when sitting with him at church events or when he put his hand on my head in blessing? For some reason, even though I’ve had sexual relations with girls, I still have an interest in older men, but not in men my own age. I made a date on Grindr with a “mature” man, but he turned out to be married so I didn’t pursue him. I’ve been waking up lately fantasizing about an older man at my gym and I jerk off. I know what I want but I don’t think it’s possible to get it. Do you have any counsel about this?

Frank answers: I don’t think it’s weird or unnatural for boys and youth to be fascinated by the bodies of older men. As boys go through puberty and adolescence their bodies are changing rapidly. They want to get a sense of what the end result of their physical development will be like. Looking at muscle or men’s health magazines has been for years the way boys could see what adult male bodies are like (or could be like with workouts). Boys (and girls) compare their bodies with their peers’ bodies too. While they may think a peer’s body is more attractive than their own (youth and many adults are self-critical about their bodies), the peer’s body hasn’t reached full development either.

It’s interesting whose bodies were of interest to you. They were all trustworthy men who had more to offer you than their physical body. They offered protection (your dad), skills (your soccer coach), and wisdom (your priest). These are qualities you would like to develop as you matured. You also wanted their affirmation of your strength, your abilities, your knowledge. You respected them and wanted them to notice you and relate to you.

Much has been written about priests and other clergy sexually abusing boys. It was and is horrible and is rightly condemned. Consider the situation of receiving communion from the hand that abused you. Even so, in listening to the stories of those who suffered abuse by priests, Northwestern University Professor Robert Orsi found in the survivors a deep commitment to the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. See Robert A. Orsi, History and Presence (Cambridge, MA: Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 2016), 227–28.

There are many books and articles that address the issue of clergy sexual abuse. But you look in vain to find articles on the internet that address the fascination boys have for priests. Perhaps that’s why you have sent your question to me. Let me tell you some experiences I’ve had.

The priest is coming to call on a family and the young man is still in his pajama bottom.

This picture from a gay-themed (unofficial) Orthodox calendar reminds me of an experience I had of calling on a family on a Saturday morning. I wanted to see the mother about church business when I was a new pastor in the congregation just getting to know the members. The parents weren’t home but their two teen age sons (ages 17 and 15) were home. The younger son answered the door when I rang the bell. He was just wearing his briefs and cracked the door open to see who was ringing the bell. When he saw that it was the pastor he opened the door and seemed happy to welcome me in his state of undress.

The older brother called down to ask who it was. His brother said it was the new pastor. Then he said, “Well invite him in.” And he came downstairs just wearing his briefs and invited me to have a seat. They were both more relaxed in this situation than I was. I did not prolong my stay. It was awkward getting acquainted with the boys who were sitting in their white briefs. I wondered if they greeted everyone in their underwear or just felt safe with the pastor.

It happened again in another congregation when I went to call on a teen age member who had been a witness to a traumatic drowning accident of a college age wilderness guide whom he admired. His mother knew I was coming and called him down to see me while she went into the kitchen. He came downstairs shirtless and remained like that during our conversation. I moved the conversation outside to their patio for privacy. I knew this family well. Still, the boy could have thrown on a shirt. But, again, perhaps he felt comfortable with me and, like the other two boys whom I mentioned above, he was in his own home. I gave him what consolation I could and then asked if I could hug him, which he let me do.

In another incident, one of my best acolytes was scheduled to serve on a summer Sunday morning. He had a job as a life guard at the local beach and wore his red t-shirt with the white cross on it. When he put on his alb, the red life guard t-shirt was clearly visible under it. I commented on that and suggested that in the future he wear a white t-shirt and change into his life guard t-shirt after the service. In fact, I told him he could keep a white t-shirt in the sacristy. He wanted to please me so he took off his alb and and also his red t-shirt and put the alb back on. I told him that if we tied the cincture tight it would keep the alb against his torso and his skin wouldn’t be very visible through the material. He did bring a white t-shirt to the sacristy and every time he served that summer he changed shirts while we were getting vested. At the end of the summer I thanked him for being so conscientious. As he changed t-shirts into his life guard shirt, he hugged me.

Here’s one last incident. A smart 15-year old boy met me on a bus with kids from several churches going to a Lutheran Youth Gathering. This was when I was a young bachelor pastor. On the bus back to South Bend he engaged me in a lot of conversation and began coming over to the parsonage when I was home for more talk. One day I had him help me clear out some clothes I was giving to Good Will. He enjoyed trying on some t-shirts I was discarding, which I said he could keep if he liked any of them.

Then he asked if he could make a confession. I asked if it was for real, and he said it was. I told him we would go over to the church to do it properly. Sitting together in the chapel with this bare-chested penitent he confessed his problems with his father and his habit of masturbation. I never challenge a confession, although on later occasions I discussed these issues with him. After I pronounce absolution in private confession, I usually exchange the greeting of peace. I offered him a hug and he laid his head against my chest and cried, saying that his father never hugged him.

In the Orthodox tradition confession has served as a mentoring process.

I might add that when I moved to St. Louis to live with the Jesuits, he ran away from home and sought me out. I let him stay in my room, with the superior’s permission, since I had two beds. But I said we would have to call his father to let him know where his son was. His father came to get him, but in the meantime I connected him with an undergraduate at the Jesuit Hall who took him to classes at the university. The father and son reconciled with the help of a Jesuit friend, and later on the boy enrolled in St. Louis University.

In many societies elders who would mentor young men included hunters, warriors, philosophers, and shamans, passing on the skills and wisdom young men needed to play a mature role in their society. Male mentoring processes included sexual initiation and social education. In ancient Greece and in the Celtic culture, among others, mentors provided youth with sexual experiences as well as with hunting, warrior, political, social, and religious skills.

It was expected in these societies that the young men would marry a girl once they had established their place in society, produce and raise children, and mentor a young man in turn. Sometimes a homosexual relationship with their former mentor continued even when both were married. How pervasive this kind of mentoring was in ancient societies is thoroughly documented in the book by John Neill, The Origins and Role of Same-Sex Relations in Human Societies (Jefferson, NC: McFarland, 2009). It is not a practice available to us in our society

A famous man-boy relationship in ancient Greece was between the aging philosopher Socrates and the handsome youth Alcibiades. It is depicted in this 1911 painting by Danish artist Kristian Zahrtmann.

Socrates discoursed about man-boy love in Plato’s Symposium.

Of course, as Western society became more Christian, pederastic and same-sex relationships became taboo. But some of this “mentoring” may have continued in monasteries in clandestine ways. Since you’re still fantasizing about a mature man’s body you may feel that something was omitted from the mentoring you received from those men whose bodies you admired in your youth. You had erections thinking about your priest (and maybe your soccer coach?), but you received no actual sexual initiation from them. That part of the mentoring was left unfulfilled.

You aren’t alone in desiring a relationship with a mature man. Another young man (age 24) wrote to me about forming a bond with a 60-year old man at his gym. They worked out together and then the older man took a shower. The older man asked the younger man why he didn’t shower after his workout. The young man admitted to being modest and said he took a shower when he got home. But the younger man decided to overcome his shyness and take a shower with the older man. He got an erection that the older man complimented him on and told him it was nothing to be ashamed of. The young man confided to me that he was gay and actually had a crush on the older man, but would not pursue it because of their age difference.

You should know that age differences between both homosexual and heterosexual couples is not unusual. Some women as well as some young men prefer older men (and some younger men prefer older women). Some older men prefer younger men or younger women. So the age thing works in different directions. It is not fair to disparage these relationships. Older men have something to offer younger men, including emotional and financial stability and the wisdom that comes from added years of life experiences. And young men have their vitality to offer older men. I enjoy doing yoga with men of different ages, including young men.

You state that you continue to have an interest in older men, but not younger men, in spite of having had sexual relations with girls. But apparently you have not had sexual relations with older men, or any men. I suspect you have an interest in exploring these unrequited desires. But I commend you for not pursuing a relationship with a married man. The complications from such a relationship could prove to be too entangling. And perhaps you reminded him by your refusal to be faithful to his wife.

What you may have desired as a boy was illegal, since it was under the age of consent, socially disapproved of, and institutionally sanctioned even over the age of consent because of imbalance of power. Your priest and soccer coach would not want to be charged with sexual abuse of minors or unethical misconduct.

Yet it’s not surprising that younger men may want a relationship with an older man. An older man is settled in life and experienced in the ways of the world, and probably also in love-making, whereas younger men are still sometimes awkward and feeling their way in relationships. You hang out in gyms and are undoubtedly working out and buildings muscles.

You meet an older man in the gym who has muscles and strength built up over years from hard work as well as working out in the gym. You’d like him to notice you and maybe become a companion, and older buddy, who could share his life experiences and wisdom with you. It’s the most natural thing in the world for a young man to be mentored by an older man. It would be great if an older man could develop a relationship with a younger man without other people attributing some shady motive to it. Young men need mentoring not only from a father, a priest, or a coach, but from an older buddy or friend.

Do you wonder whether you’re gay because you’re attracted to men, even though they’re older men? Your masturbation fantasy wasn’t a woman you previously had sex with but a mature male you met at your gym. Are your sexual attractions and fantasies exclusively same-sex with older men? What do you feel toward the women you dated and have had sex with? You have to sort out your desires and come to terms with your sexuality. Where do your attractions and desires lie? Do you get hard thinking about older men you admired as a teen? This is a taboo subject that is difficult to talk about. Yet taboo subjects are often what we need to talk about. Talking about your desire to be with older men is something you might talk about with a therapist.

Putting people into sexual boxes is a result of modern clinical sexology. But as the Kinsey Institute reports indicate, most people are much more sexually fluid than that. It’s not unheard of for gay and straight men to date and develop a relationship simply because they are attracted to each other, and maybe for more than the sex. Right now your sexuality seems confused. It will take having more life experiences to sort it out. There might be men’s clubs specifically designed to bring older and younger men together. Some older men are invigorated by the opportunity to relate to younger men, like in a gym or playing golf or in a discussion group. Maybe best of all, a walk and talk.

I hope you come to some resolution of your sexual confusion and are able to find what you desire. Best wishes.

Pastor Frank

P. S. I met my questioner in a public park to give him person counsel. I affirmed his decision not to get involved with an older married man on grindr and advised him against forming such a relationship with an older married man. He should find a suitable mentor at the gym or even at his church and develop an older man/young man mentoring relationship.